Alignment problem. Dealer replacing LH/RH bracket.

omarab12 said:

Any input guys?? I just wanna understand how you guys get your cars aligned and you can't adjust the camber and the toe... These are the areas where my car needs alterations and the techs just can't find a way to do it. Other thing is I wanna get eibach springs and that will need alignment as well so how do I do it??

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

I realize this is my first post to the Lexus F Forums, but I might as well make it a good one. I am even going to go out on a limb and self-proclaim myself as the subject matter expert for a moment here... Please read on.

The camber CAN be adjusted on these cars, but not in a traditional sense of being able to set the camber to exactly what you want per side independently. I just purchased my '08 on January 7th and drove it 1250 miles from St. Petersburg, FL to get home. The car has a little over 14k miles on it at this point and both front Michelin PS2s have bad wear on them (the RF much more-so than the LF). I took the car to my local dealership (North Park Lexus in San Antonio) to complain about the excessive tire wear and was initially given the usual "It will be $109 for the alignment, yadda yadda yadda..." I talked to them about the TSB regarding the pulling to the right, not to mention the 'scrubbing/hopping' sound I was getting when reversing at low speeds with the steering wheel turned at a significant angle. They agreed to align the car as a good-will gesture. Attached to this post is a text file with my "before" and "after" numbers. They ended up having to loosen the 'cradle' (I'm guessing they mean the front subframe itself) to equalize the camber numbers from side-to-side (cross-camber value). They are not independently adjustable, but you can move the entire subframe to equalize the camber values from side-to-side.

Now, the Lexus TSB # L-SB-0174-08 is an entire troubleshooting process to determine whether the 'pulling to one side' phenomenon is caused by tires or by alignment issues. The part that I could NOT find clearly explained *anywhere* on the Internet on any of the Lexus forums is what parts are replaced and how it "fixes" any supposed alignment issues.

The process for aligning these cars needs to be done like this -- if the camber is off from side-to-side, the subframe needs to be moved/adjusted until the camber numbers are equal (or, if not, EXTREMELY close). From there, set the toe properly and see where the caster falls out. *IF* the caster is off on one side or another (this can cause a pull to one side), there are different No. 2 arm brackets that can be ordered, depending on what you need to do with the alignment (i.e. if you need to move caster forward or backward on either side). There are two part numbers (one for the left and one for the right) that will move the caster +20' (plus twenty minutes, or roughly .33 degrees) and two part numbers (again, one for left side and one for right) that will move the caster -20'. The entire list of part numbers are:

Part # / Side / Offset Angle
48075-30020 / RH / 0 (stock)
48075-53020 / RH / +20'
48075-53030 / RH / -20'
48076-30020 / LH / 0 (stock)
48076-53020 / LH / +20'
48076-53030 / LH / -20'

(Source: Toyota TIS website: Document ID #: RM000000WWZ016X)
I have scanned a printed copy of this document and placed it on my home server here: http://rickyc.mine.nu/website/ISF/ISF-Alignment.pdf

Now, I am not going to get into a step-by-step on how to fix the issue (I already pretty much have above), as it would take me quite a while to explain what impacts camber, caster, and toe have on vehicle dynamics and tire wear, but suffice it to say I now have my car set up to maximize handling while minimizing tire wear as much as possible (again, please reference the attached .txt file to see where my alignment settings are at this point -- keep a close eye on the toe settings and the now-nearly-equalized caster settings). The car feels entirely different at this point, and I was actually lucky enough with my vehicle that the dealership didn't have to replace any of the No. 2 arm brackets once they got things where they needed to be.

In addition, I have a copy of the Lexus Service Bulletin on my same site that I linked above. You can view and/or download either of them by going to the parent directory: http://rickyc.mine.nu/website/ISF and right-clicking -> Save-as the files.

Best of luck to you all that have the pulling to the right problem.

IS-F pull to the right - "working as designed" per Lexus of Austin

Appreciate Ricky's thorough documentation here: http://www.lexusfforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19326&postcount=45

Just got home from driving my 6K mile early '09 IS-F (build date 11/08) 100 miles south to North Park Lexus of San Antonio, the same dealership Ricky used to cure his issue. Why? Because Lexus of Austin failed to fix mine after several trips and explicit instruction. Word to the wise: don't waste your time trying to get Lexus of Austin to fix the pull. Here's how I know...

TRIP 1 - 1/18/10 at 7 AM drop off my IS-F with notes, pre-printed TSIB docs, alignment specs and request to call me once it's up on the alignment rack to tell me the existing specs. I'd also asked for specs similar to RickyCRX.

9:30 AM I get call back from LOA, stating car doesn't pull.. and is "working as designed."

Ahh, no.

So I drive back down to LOA at lunch, drive the service tech down the same test roads, and the car consistently drifts into the next lane while driving in three different lanes across MoPac southbound freeway... and northbound (canceling any wind arguments) ...and up the service roads - "road crown" BS officially de-bunked. "Well, I see your point." I ask him what the specs were, and they HADN'T EVEN PUT IT ON THE RACK. Nice. "Working as designed" eh? Never had this silliness from BMW dealers (or cars, for that matter - although the service experience is reminiscent of my Lotus Elise...)

So they agree to order the "brackets" / "bushings" Ricky & others have say fixes the caster, and have me bring the car back next Monday. Thanks for wasting my lunch hour because LOA failed to collect the information requested, and tried to push this off as a TADTS (They all do that, sir). Not feeling the luv.

TRIP 2 - 1/25 7 AM I bring the car back, to get the brackets / bushings installed. I'm a little leery since they never confirmed if they ordered a full set of - and + 20' versions of the brackets for both right and left sides. They call later that day and say the bushings are installed, citing the "after" specs which look good except for toe. No "before" specs were offered - the "after" printout was time-stamped at 10:49 AM. The only change of before & after on the 10:49 copy? Toe settings. Great.

I agree to pick it up, and notice it *still* pulls on the way home. Joy.

Even better? The steering wheel is now cocked off-center (...well, at least they did something, albeit WRONG, thus causing the steering wheel to be off-center now. Argh. Can't wait to try getting that fixed now...)

I call LOA on the way home to request another appointment, and right as I'm pulling into my driveway they return my call and ask me to bring it back and demo it, AGAIN to their service tech. So I trudge through 5 PM rush hour traffic back to the dealer, find a straight road and let the tech drive the car. He's constantly correcting the steering wheel from pulling into the next right lane. "Yes, that's the pull I'm talking about - does it whether accelerating, decelerating, cruising, and braking."

I suggest doing the Tire Rack diag, where they swap front left & right tires & see if the pull goes to the other side (means bad tire is up front), then swap the rears & check to see if the pull goes to the other side (means bad tire is in rear). They take the car back and begin swapping wheels with another IS-F on their lot. Three days later they call with the results of their testing.

Findings: My car pulls with my wheels/tires, and also pulls with the other car's wheels/tires, and the other car pulls with the other car's wheels/tires and they say it therefore must be normal. Bring popcorn, it gets better...

They say to come pick up the car since "IT IS WORKING AS DESIGNED." If that's the case, Lexus kind of missed the BMW M series benchmark there. Those cars don't run off into the ditches 2 seconds after releasing the steering wheel. (But don't get me wrong, their DCT is rubbish, as noted in C/D's 40K mile test, but I digress)

Come ON, Lexus. Really? Your halo model won't go in a straight line. Not cool. Actually, very annoying. And the service team hiding behind TADTS ("They all do that, sir.") is utter cowardice.

I'm stunned. Disappointed. I thought I bought a Lexus, not a Lotus. :-( Lotus service is so appalling, their forum has a smiley for TADTS. Suffice it to say I'm less than impressed with the Lexus experience.

To LOA's credit, they did provide me with a loaner car during these visits, which came in handy since I had to drive there during my lunch hours to do the service tech's job / call BS on the car not pulling.

So, I'm putting my faith in North Park Lexus of San Antonio, 100 miles south of me (vs. LOA being 7 miles away from my house). They had no loaner car available, so my wife had to drive down from Austin to San Antonio with me so I could get to Austin. I'm hoping North Park Lexus of San Antonio lives up to their reputation... which my assigned advisor quipped on our first call, "Yes, we get a lot of Austin cases that Lexus of Austin can't fix."

If they can hit the specs below, eliminate the pull, and straighten the wheel, I'll be thrilled beyond words, although it's costing $109 for an alignment since LOA used my "one alignment during first 12 months/12K miles" chip.

FRONT (left & right, matched evenly)
Camber -0.9 degrees
Caster >8 degrees
Toe 0.08 toe-in (edge of factory spec, since Lex/Toyota use big rubber bushings in suspension members, which flex when car's rolling and reduce toe-in)

REAR
Camber -.8 degrees
Toe 0.15 toe-in

I've asked them to call me with the specs on the car while on the rack before they change anything. Craig (lead tech) there is supposed to be very experienced, and from what Ricky says, they cured his car's pull 100%. Wish us luck; I'll post again with our results later this week (hopefully saving any IS owners in Austin the frustration and lost time of dealing with LOA)

Austin, we have a problem...

Received my call from North Park Lexus of San Antonio today, telling me what the specs were as delivered to them (120 miles after getting the car from Lexus of Austin) and what they adjusted the alignment to be.

Haven't driven down to SA to drive it yet, but my hypothesis that LOA's rack is off is 90% confirmed. (Either that, or LOA did nothing but adjust toe and used the printout from another car.) I'll let you decide:

Lexus of Austin readings at 1/25 handoff to me:
FRONT (L/R):
Camber -0.9 / -0.9
Caster 8.2 / 8.2
Toe-in 0.01 / -0.01 deg

Rear (L/R):
Camber -0.7/-0.8
Toe-in 0.15 / 0.15 deg

North Park Lexus of San Antonio readings upon admittance 2/02:
(120 miles after LOA printout - one would think it's close...)

FRONT (L/R):
Camber -1.1 / -0.6
Caster 8.3 / 8.2
Toe-in 0.03 / -0.02 deg

Rear (L/R):
Camber -1.0/-0.7
Toe-in 0.05 / 0.07 deg

"Austin, we have a problem..." (with LOA's rack) Those numbers should be much closer, but look at the camber differences vs. the 1/25 reading of equal camber L/R. WTF?

North Park Lexus of San Antonio readings after adjustments 2/02:

FRONT (L/R):
Camber -0.8 / -0.9
Caster 8.1 / 8.2
Toe-in 0.10 / 0.10 deg

Rear (L/R):
Camber -0.8/-0.7
Toe-in 0.16 / 0.16 deg

Like I say, I'm willing to trust North Park Lexus of SA's rack more since RickyCRX's IS-F was corrected there last week and he's happy with it. I'll post more tomorrow after picking the car up, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

HUGE kudos to Parish (Service Advisor) and Craig (Lead Tech) at North Park Lexus, and for RickyCRX educating them on getting this known issue resolved.

And again, I have to give Lexus of Austin props for at least providing a loaner car while their techs invented new ways of saying:

"Working as designed." and "They all do that, sir."

UPDATE: If your IS-F pulls, just save yourself the time & aggravation and have it fixed by North Park Lexus of San Antonio (ask for Parish as your service advisor - he's familiar and his team got the job done right, the first time)

Picked up the car from North Park Lexus of San Antonio, and it is as close to perfect as normal people (and even enthusiasts) could expect.

Steering wheel's straight. Car has negligible if any pull whatsoever (most likely wind or tires following pavement rut), and that's so imperceptible that no one but me is going to notice. And it's nowhere near how f-ed up LOA left it.

I'm super, super happy with what we have now. Soooooooooo relieved to have a car that tracks straight. Also nice is that it takes equal amount of effort to pull the wheel off center either left or right and have equal "bounceback" to the wheel from either direction. Used to be super light to turn the wheel right - no bounceback and it'd run off toward the right ditch, but try the same turning the wheel left and it snapped back over center to the right and pulled rightward, into the ditch). So much improvement, first time, specs dialed. It's wonderful.

Ricky, thanks enormously for paving the way for a lot of us (esp. folks in Austin) who want to get it right.

Parish was an awesome service advisor, and the team cranking on the car did phenomenally. If my car wasn't in warranty, I'd still pay the money to have them do it, since they did it right the first time.

Frosting on the cake was that Lexus North America Cust Svc issued a credit that covered the expense, so I had no out-of-pocket other than 200 miles, 3.5 hrs (lovely rush hour traffic twice through Austin at 4:30 PM) of driving (for two people, since wife had to come to SA to bring me back to Austin) and gas money. Still wayyyyyyyyyy better than getting calls from LOA that they couldn't find any pull and having me come down there to show the service mgr the pull on three separate occasions.

Thanks for the information regarding alignment in this thread. Now I'm wondering if my settings are ok or not. Anyone please read below and let me know if my settings are ok.

First some background...
I just installed new wider tires 245/35/19 front and 275/30/19 rear on the stock rims of my 2008 IS F (later 2008 production car ~3900), and got the alignment done at a local shop (not at a Lexus dealership), but recommended by the Lexus service advisor. (I'm not sure if the wider tires would affect the alignment numbers, but thought I'd give this info in case it does.)

The only thing that the alignment shop said that they can adjust were the Toes for the Fronts and Rears. Here are my alignment numbers (with me in the car):

FRONT (L/R):
Camber -1.5 / -1.2 Degrees (I believe the cross camber is in spec within the +/- 0.5 degrees tolerance from Lexus.)
Caster 7.5 / 6.9 Degrees (Cross Caster not in spec, diff. of 0.6 and tolerance is also +/- 0.5 degrees)
Toe-in -0.00 / 0.01 Inches
Total Toe 0.01 Inches
Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) 8.1/15.1 Degrees

Rear (L/R):
Camber -0.9/-0.9 Degrees
Toe-in 0.05 / 0.05 Inches
Total Toe 0.10 Inches

Factory Specs (got this from the thread - http://www.lexusfforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24429) - I calculated on Excel spreadsheet the Low and High from the tolerances so it's easier to see whether I'm in spec or not...

FRONTS same for Left and Right (Range - Low to High):
Camber -1.62 to -0.12 Degrees (I'm in spec here.)
Caster 7.95 to 9.45 Degrees (I'm outta spec here.)
Toe (from Lexus) -0.07 to 0.09 Degrees (not sure how this gets converted to inches to determine if I'm in spec or not.)
Total Toe -0.07161 to 0.08579 Inches (I'm in spec here for Total Toe.)
Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) 10.43 to 11.93 Degrees (I'm WAY outta spec here.)

REAR same for Left and Right (Range from Low to High):
Camber -1.53 to -0.03 Degrees (in spec here.)
Toe (from Lexus) 0.04 to 0.20 Degrees (again, not sure how to convert this to inches.)
Total Toe 0.0393 to 0.1967 Inches (in spec here in inches.)

Note - not sure if height of tires has anything to do with it, but the new tires I have (Potenza RE11s) has a smaller OD in the front (vs. stock RE050As) by 0.3 inches and the rear by 0.4 inches.
Other info - I have ~14k miles.

Given the above:
1) I'm not sure whether I am ok or not to leave the alignment settings as-is or should I go to Lexus and have them fix the out of spec areas (i.e. Caster, Cross Caster, SAI)

2) Anyone know how to convert Degrees into Inches (or vice versa) to know whether my left or right toe angles are in spec?

3) Generally - do the alignment settings look normal or outta whack?

4) Is the 0.3 difference in my Front camber angles, significant or negligible? Similar question - are my out of spec areas for Caster, Cross Caster, and SAI significant or negligible?

5) I noticed my steering wheel is cocked to the right, but will check for pulls, if any. In the event that I don't notice a pull, am I still eligible to align my out of spec areas, under my current warranty since my vehicle is still under the 4 year 50k and I have ~14k miles. Seems like the caster brackets might be useful here, but so out of tolerance that the .33 degrees from the bracket wouldn't even bring them into spec. What then? Do they have some other method to correct this problem? or is it some other combo of adjusting other variables like camber and toe to see if the Caster gets any closer to spec?

Note - I added points 4 and 5 above several hours after my original posting (edited).

Appreciate anyone's help.

Thanks.

ISFnFast