I had a customer that just purchased a Brand New M3 6 speed. I asked if I could look at it, and he threw me the keys and said take it for a ride !! I denied at first, but he insisted, so what the hell.... ;)

First thing I found was the back end reminds me of a Saab. Once I got inside, the interior is so....blah !!!!!

I start the vehicle and hear the 4.0 V8 quitely through the exhaust. The Clutch does feel nice, not too mushy, but not too firm either.. The shifter has a decent throw, but a little too long for me. Then again, I feel most OEM shifter have a long throw.

I find first, and go around the corner where I know I am not seen. I am going about 5 miles an hour when I floor it.

Thousand-one, thousand-two, oh there it is !! RRM's seem to clime, but not as fast as in a IS-F, and I don't hear that amazing sound when our cars hit 3,200 RPM's. At around 5,000 RPM's, I finally feel good power and am pushed into the back of the seat, I slap second, and then 3rd. By that time I'm on the brakes. The brakes feel fine, but I feel like they were only "good enough" to stop, not like the Brembo brakes.

Car seems like it would be fun to drive if you can keep it in the higher RPM's.
But to pay almost $60k and not have a moonroof, Nav, or any other of the creature functions, No Thanks.

Just my 2 cents.

July 10th I am actually going to meet with STU and MotiveMag and drive the C63 and M3 on the track. I can't wait !! :eek:

Keep us posted;)

I agree with Andy on most of his points. Interior didn't wow me though I did love the exterior. After driving it (which was before I even knew an ISF existed) I didn't feel like I need to plunk down my money right then and there. Shifting was nice but could not compare to the S2000 I owned back in the day. Power delivery did seem like it took a while to kick in unless you're driving constantly at high revs (which is not easy to do in town). Certainly power is there in spades as the M3 ususally turns in slightly faster 0-60 times than the Lexus.

I disagree on the brakes though. Typical BMW perfect feedback. As is the case with the steering.....perfect as always. The fact that the ISF is even in M3's league is amazing, given all the time BMW has had to hone its product.

Which leads to one other comment. In my opinion, the BMW 328 and 335 each run loops around the Lexus IS 250 and 350, respectively. BMW's reputation as a driver's car is so apparent in their 3-Series compared to the lower two IS cars, which feel Camryish in comparison. It's not until one gets to the "M" versus the "F" that Lexus holds its own. Kudos to the separate engineering team that reworked the IS from scratch.

We have both the F and the 335i. Both are new. My wife drives the 335i hard top conv. I drive the F. I much prefer the F for pure driving pleasure, but Karen's 335i is a "show stopper" with the top down. It is Montego Blue Metalic with light cream interior. The 335i has the Steptronic paddle shifting 6 speed automatic. As far as I am concerned, there is no comparison with the F's 8 speed auto.

Andy, I was comparing the IS 250 to the BMW 328 and the IS 350 to the BMW 335. In these two comparisons I feel BMW has a huge edge in regards to a pure driving experience. In the ISF versus the M3 comparison, the two cars obviously run neck and neck in every conceivable matchup. Again, very impressive given BMW's time to perfect their product.

Again, I was just writing my feeling after driving the M3. I forgot to mention the steering, and I agree, it was perfect. You know what they say about opinions, they are like A**holes, everyone has one ;)

Again, I was just writing my feeling after driving the M3. I forgot to mention the steering, and I agree, it was perfect. You know what they say about opinions, they are like A**holes, everyone has one ;)


Oh well, at least we've awakened this sleepy little site a bit. The only downside to a limited production vehicle.....limited feedback.

I'm wondering how bias your opinion would be if you were selling the BMW instead of the Lexus!

Fortunately Lexus "IS" a more superior made vehicle (more wood,features,better quality vehicle and they last longer on the road).For being in business for only 20 years;it's the Germans that are taking a strong look at how the Japanese are making their vehicles and should be concerned.Have you seen how bland the interior of a BMW is? It looks like it's from the late 80's still!! lol

Lets hear from IFS Champ.....Bias or not?

My son owns a 2001 BMW 330ci. When I bought my wife's 335i conv. he almost insisted that I buy the 100k warantee. I had never bought one before, but he said that by the time she had over 50k miles on her car she would need the extended warantee. That from an owner of a BMW. BTW his 330i has about 135k miles on it and is sitting in the garage with a blown head gasket (or cracked head). Estimated cost to fix $10k

"Estimated cost to fix $10k"

That's the one major advantage of having a Lexus is that it's built by Toyota and the parts wont be that expensive.Alot of the cost is in the labor, unless you do it yourself.

Old$parts. I would have to say I was not being Bias when I wrote that or even when I drove the M3. My father, who actually lives in California has not only a 2003 M5 with ALL Dinan products, but my step mom has a 08 X5 4.8 i Sport loaded to the gills. I love driving both of them !! I guess I was hoping for more out of the M3 that's all.

JUST CHECKING!

I test drove an M3 sedan and an F several times over the weekend. Here is my take.


Engine: both are good; do you want torque or top end (I like the torque-F)
Trans: Didn't like the M at all. It was way too rubbery. You can put a shorter throw linkage in it, but it would still be rubbery. (F)
Appearance: Both look stunning (tie)
Suspension: I thought the F cornered better...flatter, smoother... for the real world. If I were on a race track, maybe the M, but I have to drive on the street (F)
Ride: Both were very smooth over rough road; didn't beat you up, very composed. (tie)
Steering: Hands down, the M3 steered like a dream. This thing turns telepathically; unbelievable! (M by a mile)
(If my comments on the suspension, ride and steering seems contradictory; another way to put is that the F's suspension was set up with less fast compression, and more fast rebound (thinner shock oil, and thicker swaybars) than the M. This makes it more compliant over fast bumps mid corner, but on a smooth road, the M is on rails) IMHO

Interior: The M had more room in the back seats, but the F had more comfortable front seats. But from an appearance stand point, the nod goes to the M because you can get wood (instead of the funky silver stuff) (M by a hair)
Features: You can option both cars with the same features, except the F has a back up camera (F by a hair)
Misc: The F has a spare! I've had my BMW for over 7 yrs. I've used mine 3 times. Glad I had it, you don't think of it until you NEED it (F)

Value: No matter how you cut it, fitted out the equally, the F is 10K +/- cheaper. And since my money tree burnt to the ground last year, I just don't think I would pay an extra 10K for a car that steers better: and for God sakes! 1K for a sun roof? Both dealers were willing to deal (end of the month).

If they were both the exact same price, maybe the M when the DSG comes out. But they're not, so I would give a clear nod to the F.

My objectivity? I'm so objective, I don't own either cars...yet.

YMMV

Excellent observations, PCR. I would tend to agree with you on every point. For the record though, most mags and videos I've seen give the M the advantage on suspension, particularly on rough roads where the F tends to dance around a bit more. As you said, perhaps the advantage to the M is more clear on a race track and the F wins out for everyday driving.

The only area you did not compare would be braking, where I gave the M the nod. I've always loved the feel of BMW brakes. The F, like most manufacturers, mistake good stopping power with good brakes. Of course that is the purpose of brakes but feel when applying the brakes is what separates the great from the not-so-great. The F is a little too touchy in comparison.

I think many of the readers will disagree with your opinion on the looks of the interior. My initial opinion when comparing was that the M looked better. The F is a little too sparse, particularly the passenger side where literally nothing is happening. As the weeks have gone by I am appreciating the interior more and more though. Nice little touches that at first might go unnoticed. Unfortunately both look like crap in comparison to the 3rd car on my list at the time, the Jaguar XF......whoa.

Old$parts. I would have to say I was not being Bias when I wrote that or even when I drove the M3. My father, who actually lives in California has not only a 2003 M5 with ALL Dinan products, but my step mom has a 08 X5 4.8 i Sport loaded to the gills. I love driving both of them !! I guess I was hoping for more out of the M3 that's all.



Fair enough for me.......I believe that you would give kudos where due.

C.

Msedanman,

I am a true car enthusiast !! I'm not one thats loyal to a certain brand, even if I work for that car company. For the record, I own 2 diffrent brands of vehicles personally between my wifes car, my daily driver, and the "toy"...
I can say when I'm ready to retire the daily driver, there are several good candidates I am going to look at across the board.

I am really looking to July 10th when I bring my IS-F "demo" to the Joliet Autobahn Race Track again and get a chance to drive the M3, and C63 !!!!

Msedanman,

I am a true car enthusiast !! I'm not one thats loyal to a certain brand, even if I work for that car company. For the record, I own 2 diffrent brands of vehicles personally between my wifes car, my daily driver, and the "toy"...
I can say when I'm ready to retire the daily driver, there are several good candidates I am going to look at across the board.

I am really looking to July 10th when I bring my IS-F "demo" to the Joliet Autobahn Race Track again and get a chance to drive the M3, and C63 !!!!


That comparo I look forward to....Keep us up on it please. :)

Colin.

Information from:

http://www.hypertuned.net/vehicles83.htm

2008 Lexus ISF

0-60 mph.4.2 sec. 1/4 mile ET. @ mph.12.7 sec. @ 114 mph. Top Speed172 mph. Roadholding0.92 g. | 300-ft.-dia. skidpad Braking 70-0 mph.159 ft. Horsepower416 bhp. @ 6600 rpm. Torque371 lb-ft. @ 5200 rpm. EngineDOHC 32-valve CylindersV8 Displacement303 cu. in. (4969 cc) Engine Locationfront engine Aspirationnatural Transmission8-speed automatic w/ manumatic shifting Drive Wheelrear wheel drive Curb Weight3800 lbs. lb. per bhp.9.1 lbs./hp. Base Price$60000


2008 BMW M3

0-60 mph.4.3 sec. 1/4 mile ET. @ mph.12.8 sec. @ 113 mph. Top Speed161 mph. Roadholding0.94 g. | 300-ft.-dia. skidpad Braking 70-0 mph.156 ft. Horsepower414 bhp. @ 8300 rpm. Torque295 lb-ft. @ 3900 rpm. EngineDOHC 32-valve CylindersV8 Displacement244 cu. in. (3999 cc) Engine Locationfront engine Aspirationnatural Transmission6-speed manual Drive Wheelrear wheel drive Curb Weight3571 lbs. lb. per bhp.8.6 lbs./hp. Base Price$62000

2008 Audi RS4

0-60 mph.4.6 sec. 1/4 mile ET. @ mph.13.1 sec. @ 108 mph. Top Speed163 mph. Roadholding0.88 g. | 150-ft.-dia. skidpad Braking 70-0 mph.157 ft. Horsepower420 bhp. @ 7800 rpm. Torque317 lb-ft. @ 6000 rpm. EngineDOHC 32-valve CylindersV8 Displacement254 cu. in. (4163 cc) Engine Locationfront engine Aspirationnatural Transmission6-speed manual Drive Wheel4-wheel drive Curb Weight3814 lbs. lb. per bhp.9.0 lbs./hp. Base Price$69785


2008 Mercedes Benz C63 AMG

0-60 mph.3.9 sec. 1/4 mile ET. @ mph.12.3 sec. @ 116 mph. Top Speed153 mph. Roadholding0.88 g. | 150-ft.-dia. skidpad Braking 70-0 mph.155 ft. Horsepower451 bhp. @ 6800 rpm. Torque443 lb-ft. @ 5000 rpm. EngineDOHC 32-valves CylindersV8 Displacement379 cu. in. (6208 cc) Engine Locationfront engine Aspirationnatural Transmission7-speed automatic w/ manumatic shift Drive Wheelrear wheel drive Curb Weight4034 lbs. lb. per bhp.8.9 lbs./hp. Base Price$63000

WOW!

old$parts

"2008 IS-F Base Price$60000"

Pretty much fully loaded for that price,more bang for the buck.If I had the money though it'll have to be the Merc C63 AMG Black ---WOW!!

It does look awesome, and I'm sure all that power is there too. But one thing I can tell you from years of racing is, it doesn't matter how much horsepower you have if you can't get it to the ground !! I can't wait to drive the M3 and C63 at the track next Thrusday !!!

Tomster:
Biggest problem when reading the mags and vids are that these guys are flogging a car around a race track, going all out (check out the inside cover of Car and Driver). By the time you're getting a car to dance around corners' you're probably pushing it too hard on the street.

I didn't have an opinion on the brakes, because I didn't get a chance to really jump on them. In regular driving they both seemed fine.

I gotta say, for being a BMW guy for many years, the F REALLY impressed me. All things considered, I would buy an F. I didn't think I would. I joined this board to check it out, to see what's out there, and to read what others thought.

Last weekend I was within fractions of buying an F, but the deal fell apart. Once we get thing back into order, I'll probably buy an F over an M.

Just for the record, I took a Mercedes CLK 63 AMG Black out on the track (CA Speedway) and the torque was absolutely amazing, though the car tends to get away from you a bit easier than comparable vehicles in its class do when driving it hard through the apex, etc.

But for pure torque and fun, the car is amazing. Wish it had some rear seats, though (they've been taken out in the name of saving weight).

But overall, what a rocket! Anyone else own one or drive one yet?

Just for the record, though, I'd STILL prefer my IS-F over that ride!!! Hands down.

"Just for the record, though, I'd STILL prefer my IS-F over that ride!!! Hands down."

Me too!!, especially since I can own 2 IS-F'S for the price of 1 C63 AMG Black!

"Me too!!, especially since I can own 2 IS-F'S for the price of 1 C63 AMG Black!"

Really? I thought all three of these cars were within a few thousand of one another?

NO, the C63 AMG Black sells for $135,000!!!
Even the regular C63 AMG is around $64,000 but with gas guzzler tax and some options it could cost over $70,000 easy.

Look at rushnut's post, I think Smoke meant to write CLK not C

PCR your right it is the CLK 63 AMG BLACK, I just put C63 for short.

I was wondering if anyone can answer this question, how is the ride comfort of the is-f compared to the m3 with edc (adjustable shocks)? Also how is the ride of the is-f compared to the is350?

I really wish dealers had demos of the is-f so I could actually see for myself.

The IS-F is stiffer than the IS350. Sway bars are thicker by 30% over a IS350. Lower front suspension bushings stiffened by 20%. Increased gas pressure in shock absorbers for better damping in high speed turns. The undercarrage has a stiffing brake to keep the vehicle from twisting too !!

As the owner of two previous M cars (original M6 and E39 chassis M5), I can attest to BMW's wonderful brakes, steering and ride/handling balance. I also can attest to their tendency to have recurrent and very expensive mechanical problems which is precisely the reason why I am now the proud owner of a beautiful IS-F. I am hoping to drive my IS-F into the ground by breaking my prior longest term committment of 42 months with a vehicle. I have not driven the E92/E93 chassis M3 but it does appear attractive (to my eye) but the mechanical reliability issues prevented me from considering its purchase. Just my two cents.

has any one driven the c63amg ? i liked it in print . evry dealer i went to didnt have one in stock but i loved what i read about it it was my top contender next to the isf. i felt you just got more with the isf plus the wow factor you get wth the isf is off the chart and i didnt trust the reliability on the merc. i also test drove the evo gsx and mr both were ablast but cheap feeling .iplan to test drive the s5 also liked that one. there so many truly great cars out there but i found the isf to be the best for me perfect mix of beauty and beast.

has any one driven the c63amg ? i liked it in print . evry dealer i went to didnt have one in stock but i loved what i read about it it was my top contender next to the isf. i felt you just got more with the isf plus the wow factor you get wth the isf is off the chart and i didnt trust the reliability on the merc. i also test drove the evo gsx and mr both were ablast but cheap feeling .iplan to test drive the s5 also liked that one. there so many truly great cars out there but i found the isf to be the best for me perfect mix of beauty and beast. smt i feel you i cant keep a car more than 2 years either for the last 12 yrs but plan on keep ing my isf for many years i hope.

Fresno Mercedes didn't have any c63AMGs on the lot. They were also asking for a 10k premium. :<

Of course this is my opinion but personally I like the M3 E92..If anyone read my first post here on this forum originally I was in transit in purchasing full option M3($70K before tax or close to that number) but sadly and embarrassing I do not know how to drive manuel..I never learned due to auto's..Anyhow I think RS4,M3 and C63 AMG are all nice cars but If I had a preference I take the M3 overall due to cornering on this car is amazing..I had the privilege of finally test driving again with my friend who is thinking of getting a M3(He drives Manuel ONLY).It's heavenly..
But over the past 3 months I really like my IS-F and learn to appreciate it..
I still have not seen one on my way yet..it's been 3 months..

As the owner of two previous M cars (original M6 and E39 chassis M5), I can attest to BMW's wonderful brakes, steering and ride/handling balance. I also can attest to their tendency to have recurrent and very expensive mechanical problems which is precisely the reason why I am now the proud owner of a beautiful IS-F. I am hoping to drive my IS-F into the ground by breaking my prior longest term committment of 42 months with a vehicle. I have not driven the E92/E93 chassis M3 but it does appear attractive (to my eye) but the mechanical reliability issues prevented me from considering its purchase. Just my two cents.

Are you serious Bro? I mean yeah, The F is a racing machine but unless I'm mistaken sound like your gonna tear the IS-F apart..Yes? Me, personally I'm planning to drive the F for about 2-3 years before I get the GTR(For around $75-80K this machine is a monster car that beats or equals lambos,Porsche and vette's)..

HenryZZZ, I drove the C63AMG on the road and track. Look at the article's I wrote on here.

ive driven the C63 AMG. compared to the new M3, its better all around

1. more power.
2. better intierior
3. more agressive looks

ok the m3 still handles slightly better and consumes less gas. BMWs handling is the benchmark for anything german and not named porsche.

but i would take a C63 over the new E92 M3 anyday of the week and twice on sundays.

its really a good car. my only problem with it is its REALLY bad on gas. when ur on it, u get like 9-10MPG, and thats simply not good enough for me.

other than that, its simply a car without really any faults.
still debating on the C63 VS the isF. will decide by mid august.

I think the C63 is very powerful, but the paddle shifting is VERY slow, almost like the car's not sure what you want it to do. The interior still looks like a C class, which doesn't have too much class... Too many small buttons, and the optional nav system is pretty silly coming out of the center consule like that, plus it's a pain to use...
My last gripe about the C63, besides the fuel economy, is the FUGLY Orange reflectors that looks like they added at the last second on the US Production cars on the front end....

I think the C63 is very powerful, but the paddle shifting is VERY slow, almost like the car's not sure what you want it to do. The interior still looks like a C class, which doesn't have too much class... Too many small buttons, and the optional nav system is pretty silly coming out of the center consule like that, plus it's a pain to use...
My last gripe about the C63, besides the fuel economy, is the FUGLY Orange reflectors that looks like they added at the last second on the US Production cars on the front end....

ehh all cars come with fugly orange reflectors. u can get those painted for like 50 to match the car. or get clear reflectors. thats no biggie.

fuel economy is a huge gripe. seriously when u hammer it you can watch the needle drop. a buddy of mine who got one drives like me he got 148 miles before the light came on for more gas. thats just pitiful. thats worse than a lambo.

the 7speed i found to be decent. much better than the 5 spd thats in the older AMGs (E55, CLK55, CLS55, C55)

however, the 6spd on the M3 doesnt feel good at all. when i drove that, it felt like the car doesnt make all the power to the ground. the gearing is not as good. that car needs 7 gears, not 6.